Plakias Forums

Plakias => PlakChat => Topic started by: Mike G on February 18, 2012, 01:38:33 PM

Title: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike G on February 18, 2012, 01:38:33 PM
Many who use this forum have visited and loved Plakias (and other areas of Greece in many cases) for many years and feel very sorry for the economic predicament the Greek government (aided and abetted by others) has got the Greek people into. We hope they get through their current situation for better times ahead but many (me included) suspect that they are in an impossible situation and that default on their debts and leaving the eurozone is inevitable.
 
If this happens I wonder what the consequences for both the Greeks and us, the holidaymakers, would be? The new drachma would be massively devalued, that is virtually certain, and prices in Greece would rise considerably as a result. These two facts would work in opposite directions with respect to our costs. No one would lend money to Greece, so as a nation they would have to live within their means. Would the fabric of Greek society fall apart? It is at breaking point now and sometimes gives the impression that Greece is becoming ungovernable. Little of this has fitered through to Plakias though. I am old enough to remember when Greece was a military dictatorship (1967-1974). Would this happen again? It would mean Greece would have to leave the EU I think.
 
One issue is the inability of the Greek authorities to collect the tax owed and this was brought home to me last year at the Olympic welcome meeting when the rep, Sian, told us about the private medical facilities available in Plakias. By the way, she said, you need to know that the doctor only accepts payment in cash!! Presumably another Greek professional claiming an income of only around €5000 as has been widely stated in the British press.
 
I would be interested to hear what other forum members think and what the prognosis is for Greece and our many friends in Plakias.
 
Mike
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: John R on February 18, 2012, 02:27:57 PM
Like many - I am sure - I am watching the situation with interest. Selfish interest re hoping I get my annual trip to Plakias as usual but also very concerned for the financial welfare of the many locals that we now know. The best thing we can do for them is to turn up and pay up as usual.

Difficult to speculate on the consequences for us tourists of a Greek financial collapse. I would have thought that a much devalued Drachma would initially mean cheaper prices for tourists but I would not feel happy if that was the case and I was effectively cashing in on local hardship. This year I am using Olympic to get me there and back (still going to stay at my favourite place Stella Pension at additional cost to me). If troubles occur near departure time I worry what Olympic might do - whatever it is might be to their advantage rather than mine. If I was still an independent traveller then I could make my own mind up and face any consequences. So I have mixed feelings as to whether my ATOL protection will be better than my independence. I'm not too worried about my holiday one way or the other (as long as I get it) but I feel for the financial hardships of the Greek person on the street.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: nora on February 18, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
Greece has always been one of- if not the cheapest place to go on a package holiday from the UK. I have been to many other places in Europe but to me non compare. I do really hope that the greek government listen to their people = if that means its more expensive for uk tourists  - I still feel confident they will come - as i think there is no place better....
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Bertie on February 19, 2012, 08:06:53 AM
I agree with John that the best way for us to support our beloved Greece and Plakias is to continue to visit and spend, even if we have to endure a little inconvenience on the journey. We know how hard some of our friends in Plakias work in the season and they deserve our support more now than ever. This is what sets us apart from those who take a package to Malia and simply sit by a hotel pool all day. I still intend to make my regular two visits in July and September this year.
On the subject of locals paying tax Mike, don't jump to any conclusions about the doctor. I recently saw a consultant here in the UK and had to pay up front. He wasn't avoiding taxes but just ensuring he got paid. He'd obviosly been stung too many times previously. However, why single out the doctor? I, who uses plastic for almost everything I buy at home, use nothing but cash in Plakias and am fully aware of the reason why I sometimes don't receive a written receipt in a restaurant.
With our help they'll get through it.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Colin & Sandra on February 19, 2012, 11:08:46 AM
Has anyone any thoughts regarding spending money whilst there?
We were in Skiathos in 1992 when Britain withdrew from the ERM (Black Wednesday) and had our posteriors well and truly chafed when changing our travellers cheques.
Over the last few years we have taken Euro's, but if the situation hasn't stabilized by June I think we will take all Sterling this year
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: John R on February 19, 2012, 11:36:52 AM
If say Greece suddenly came off the Euro and say introduced Drachma then there would be initial chaos - no banks open, no cash machines working, no Drachma immediately available - basically no money available. However I understand that the Euro in ones hand would be very desirable indeed - so much so that the Greek Government would have to put border controls to stop the export of caches of Euro notes being smuggled abroad for exchange in to something worthwhile or be banked abroad. What would worry the Greeks would be Euros that are frozen in their bank accounts as those would be no longer available to them as euros but only as a much devalued new currency. If you take sterling there might be nothing in any exchange shop to exchange it for and the locals would not have any idea of any rate of exchange in order to accept them. Greece coming off the Euro will not mean that the Euro will be worthless there at any stage - particularly on day 1. In Russia where the Rouble is neither available over here nor exportable from Russia they will accept US Dollars or Euros but not Sterling (except at a premium). So I think the Euro will be a safe bet in any event.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on February 20, 2012, 11:53:10 AM
We normally take sterling as it can be difficult on smaller Islands to change travellers cheques. This Year however we are at a loss, take Euro's or Euro travellers cheques? The crisis makes me think Euro's and sterling in the form of cash are best to take. Who knows how the crisis will affect banking and if it does will branches close, will ATM's be maintained? Tourism is the Lifeblood of Modern Greece so Holidays booked via the big tour operators should be safe. Islands depending on Local ferry and Aircraft connections are already reporting many problems. Crete with its International Airport should still be a safe bet as Airport operators are striving to keep strike free because of the huge loss to the economy if national strikes were to happen. I really feel for the low paid and the pensioners in Greece as the Rich still avoid their taxes so the burden continues to fall on the poorest. You can read about the dilemma of tax collection and avoidance here (reminds me of "Catch 22" ) http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_4_19/02/2012_428730 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_4_19/02/2012_428730)
Well that was a bit rambling :-)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on February 20, 2012, 12:04:32 PM
Crisis, riots weigh on bookings.
By Stathis Kousounis

The reduction rate in bookings for the current tourist season from traditional markets such as Germany, the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries has reached double digits so far, compared with last year, according to hotel market professionals. Recent images from the riots in Athens will not help the Greek product, meanwhile.

Although it is still early to draw any safe conclusions -- as just 15 to 20 percent of the year’s bookings have been made so far -- it appears that there are also losses from the British market, albeit smaller, while the Russian and the Israeli markets are on the rise.

Hellenic Hotel Federation President Yiannis Retsos said this is the most crucial period for final planning and provisional bookings as foreign tour operators will have to decide on the number of flights per destination depending on demand.

The prolonged discussions on the Greek debt swap and the recession environment in various European countries have weighed on bookings, he added.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_15433_19/02/2012_428745 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_15433_19/02/2012_428745)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike G on February 20, 2012, 02:47:19 PM
I certainly agree with John R that a Greek withdrawl from the euro would lead to a period of chaos and it is arguable which would be the safest currency to take. Personally I take € and £ notes, with credit cards as backup.

I am still suspicious about the doctor wanting cash. I don't have a problem with his wanting an up front payment; it's the fact of its being cash only.

I'm not surprised bookings are down. The general strikes (i.e. no flights) are one issue. Also, many just want a good Mediterranean break and, unlike us, are just as happy with other places. They don't want to risk Greece. Germans have always had some hostility from older Cretans re. the war but now it seems it is more widespread owing to the fact that the Germans are dictating terms to the Greek government. I understand that, but you can understand why the Germans and other eurozone countries who live better within their means are fed up with bailing out the Greeks.

So, like all of us, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I can carry on going to Plakias and other parts of Greece. If not, I'm sure I shall find some places to my liking elsewhere.

Mike
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on February 21, 2012, 10:42:39 AM
Very Interesting Article on the Greek crisis in Der Spiegel.
Europe's finance ministers plan to approve a second bailout for Greece on Monday but Hans-Werner Sinn, the head of Ifo, a top German economic think tank, warns that the money will only help international banks -- not the Greeks. He argues that Greece can only solve its crisis if it quits the euro.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,816410,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,816410,00.html)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: John R on February 21, 2012, 03:16:28 PM
This report today - reported today (AFTER the financial settlement) by Daily Mail and Travel Mole doesn't show too much optimism. I still think that Plakias should be safe enough at all times :-

"British holidaymakers in Greece are being urged to register with the Foreign Office so they can be contacted immediately if the social unrest in the country worsens. Foreign Secretary William Hague has reminded Britons of the importance of letting the government know their whereabouts, according to a report in the Daily Mail. He told the paper the Foreign Office had drawn up contingency plans in case the situation in Greece worsens and puts Britons at risk. To register, holidaymakers can visit www.locate.fco.gov.uk (http://www.locate.fco.gov.uk)"

I suspect however that the press have distorted the notification and that it is directed more at the expat community than holidaymakers
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on February 21, 2012, 08:34:44 PM
The improbable Greece plan

Greece is now officially a ward of the international community. It has no real independence when it comes to fiscal policy any more, and if everything goes according to plan, it’s not going to have any independence for many, many years to come. Here, for instance, is a little of the official Eurogroup statement:

"We therefore invite the Commission to significantly strengthen its Task Force for Greece, in particular through an enhanced and permanent presence on the ground in Greece... "

The problem, of course, is that all the observers and “segregated accounts” in the world can’t turn Greece’s economy around when it’s burdened with an overvalued currency and has no ability to implement any kind of stimulus.

The effect of all this fiscal tightening? Magic growth! A huge amount of heavy lifting, in terms of making the numbers work, is done by the debt sustainability analysis, and specifically the assumptions it makes. Greece is five years into a gruesome recession with the worst effects of austerity yet to hit. But somehow the Eurozone expects that Greece will bounce back to zero real GDP growth in 2013, and positive real GDP growth from 2014 onwards.

Note that the downside, here, still looks astonishingly optimistic: where’s all this economic growth meant to be coming from, in a country suffering from massive wage deflation? And under this pretty upbeat downside scenario, Greece gets nowhere near the required 120% debt-to-GDP level by 2020: instead, it only gets to 159%.

Oh, and in case you forgot, this whole plan is also contingent on a bunch of things which are outside the Troika’s control, including a successful bond exchange.

More to the point, the plan assumes that Greece’s politicians will stick to what they’ve agreed, and start selling off huge chunks of their country’s patrimony while at the same time imposing enormous budget cuts. Needless to say, there is no indication that Greece’s politicians are willing or able to do this, nor that Greece’s population will put up with such a thing. It could easily all fall apart within months; the chances of it gliding to success and a 120% debt-to-GDP ratio in 2020 have got to be de minimis.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: plakias on the rocks on February 22, 2012, 01:13:35 AM
Unfortunately in my country there are no politicians and much more a political leader who can give an objective and vision to the Greeks that we be born again as a country and leave behind the wrongs of modern Greek history. It seems that still need 1 or 2 generations to change people mentality and way of thinking, because surely the economic crisis is the result of moral values, not only in Greece or Europe but Worldwide.
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ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ!!!! ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΤΟ ΔΕΙΤΕ....Ν.3.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQA9KYUFqhE#)

I really love this political speach!
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on February 22, 2012, 10:28:42 AM
More doom and Gloom reported in the Guardian Newspaper today 22/02/12.
Greeks will suffer austerity measures for another five years as the price of their government securing a €130bn (£109bn) bailout to prevent national bankruptcy and chaos within the eurozone, it has emerged.

The scale of the wage and spending cuts required to implement the rescue package prompted an array of analysts to raise the spectre of yet another Greek debt crisis later this year and the country's exit from the euro as recession deepens.

Senior EU officials admitted, that, after enduring wage cuts of 30% since 2009, Greeks would suffer a further 15% reduction in the next three years and even more cuts would be required after that.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/21/greeks-five-years-eurozone-crisis (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/21/greeks-five-years-eurozone-crisis)
Terrible news for the Greek people, the Politicians seem to think only of repaying debt whilst their people lose their jobs, become homeless, lose medical care and starve.
I do not know what the answer is, but it seems the single currency is not it.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Rogataber on February 22, 2012, 07:53:25 PM
I do not know what the answer is, but it seems the single currency is not it.

It never was, it's difficult enough to set financial parameters on sterling in a small country like the UK - London, rural Wales, Tyneside, Belfast are so disparate that no exchange rate suits all! The divergence between Berlin and Plakias is even more vast - making it impossible. Why the Greeks wanted to join the Euro is mysterious but even more strange, why did Germany & France want them in (especially enough to assist them in colluding to fudge the entry criteria)!

Roger
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike from Sussex on February 22, 2012, 10:39:13 PM
My two drachma worth, if anyone is intersted.

The Euro was always a political project, aimed at making the European Union exactly that – a federal organisation with a central government. This was unlikely to be accomplished within a generation or two by persuasion of the various populations, so, since a currency cannot succeed without a single fiscal policy, the Euro was introduced with the intention that central government would become the compelling result. 

This may have had a chance of success if the project was developed over 30 to 40 years, but this would not meet the short term political aim. Hence the conniving at fudged entry criteria and the requirement of entry to the Euro as a condition of EU membership for new entrants.

Why did Greece want to join the Euro? The promise of cheap borrowing rates and the theory that the weaker members would be pulled up to the economic performance of e.g. Germany. The cheaper borrowing lasted for a while, helped by some considerable insanity in the international banking system, but resulted in the government over borrowing. Economically, consumer prices rose towards the Eurozone average, driving up wage rates, without the productivity of the North European countries.

This all resulted in an unsustainable level of government debt and private incomes at excessive levels within the Greek economy suffering “stagflation”, even whilst the Eurozone economy as a whole was in growth. It is difficult to see the imposed solution of the Euro finance ministers leading to any improvement in the position of Greece, so the status quo is unlikely to endure.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: John R on February 23, 2012, 11:41:45 AM
Well said Mike - I think that sums it up very well - the fudging of Greece's entry criteria also adding to the list of problems you highlight above - and the Greeks were aided by other over enthusiastic EU states in this fudging - they were not entirely to blame.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike from Sussex on February 23, 2012, 03:58:01 PM
John,

Fudged entry criteria applied to other countries also. Greece started with about the weakest economy, so the problems became critical there first, but look at the list now!

The problem for Greece is that the EU "bailout" is to stop a collapse of many banks, or rather the massive government supoort which would be required to stop the collapse of the critical ones (including many French major banks, who were lending into Greece like it was going out of fashion), not to revive the Greek economy. I don't know what will happen, but the present situation cannot be sustained by the populace for too long before there must be major political upheaval, which has been quite common in Greece over the years.

Mike
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: John R on February 23, 2012, 07:38:59 PM
Well yes - you have hit the nail again. The imminent Greek elections may be very interesting indeed on their influence on the current problem. I suspect that at that point politics will overtake any recent financial agreements to date. I feel that is the point when things will boil over - perhaps for the short term bad but maybe even the  long term good for Greece.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 01, 2012, 03:16:45 PM
If Britain were Greece.
See how tough it really is.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17202274)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 12, 2012, 05:57:38 PM
Poor Greeks are being hit hard again. When will it ever end for them?
Drastic cuts in unemployment and other benefits go into effect this week, despite a government pledge to protect the jobless.

The 22 percent cut in the minimum wage was approved by parliament last month, resulted in corresponding benefit cuts at the state employment agency (OAED), with monthly unemployment pay dropping from 461 to 360 euros, and payment for the long-term unemployed being reduced from 200 to 156 euros. Family support for low-income households dropped from 98 to 77 euros.

The measure has worsened hardship for hundreds of thousands of people on benefits, with unemployment at 21 percent in December, with 1,033,507 officially out of work that month.

The government had promised compensatory measures for the unemployed after the minimum wage cut, a pledge that was swiftly abandoned.

The head of the country's largest public insurance fund, the Social Insurance Foundation (IKA), meanwhile, said pension and Easter bonus payouts will not be affected by a bond write-down deal that will see public insurers lose billions from their Greek government bond holdings.

Rovertos Spyropoulos also promised to intensify a crackdown on fraud following the news of a 6 million euro embezzlement scam at IKA's branch in Kallithea, mostly involving bogus birth and hospital fees. (Athens News/gw) http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/53994 (http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/53994)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 12, 2012, 06:26:01 PM
Despite the contraction of the economy, consumer prices keep rising at a level that exceeds 2 percent on an annual basis, as inflation came to 2.1 percent in February according to a Hellenic Statistical Authority (ELSTAT) report on Friday.

The increase in the prices of fuel, fresh fruit and vegetables, and food served in restaurants and bars (due to the increase in value-added tax) compared with February 2011 resulted in a relatively high inflation level, given the recession.

There was still a decline in the prices of apparel, homeware products, telecommunications and drugs.

The average inflation rate for the 12 months to February 2012 came to 2.9 percent from the year before, compared to 5.1 percent in the previous 12 months.

The commodities with the biggest annual rise last month were heating oil (25.1 percent), natural gas (23.6 percent), electricity (13.9 percent), road toll rates (9.7 percent), gasoline (8.6 percent) and fresh fruit (7.8 percent).
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_09/03/2012_432207 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_09/03/2012_432207)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 14, 2012, 08:30:30 AM
Greece’s relief at having its new bailout approved by eurozone finance ministers was tempered on Tuesday by the publication of a confidential European Commission report on the Greek economy, which foresees Athens having to adopt almost 12 billion euros of austerity measures in 2013 and 2014.

Elections are likely to be held in early May so one of the next government’s first tasks will be to find 7.6 billion euros of savings in 2013 and another 4.1 billion in 2014 to stay on track with the fiscal program agreed with the Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund, collectively known as the troika. The savings are likely to come from fresh cuts to pensions, new reductions in social transfers, the further slashing of pharmaceutical and healthcare spending, another round of cuts to defence spending and a restructuring of central and local administration.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_13/03/2012_432826 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_13/03/2012_432826)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 21, 2012, 09:36:23 AM
Quote
British tour operators have called on Athens and its creditors to improve Greece’s image abroad or face the risk of having bookings canceled due to low demand.
In an open letter to the ministers of finance and culture, as well as the representatives of the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund, three major tourism and travel associations representing 844 tour operators and 3,547 travel agencies in the United Kingdom warn that unless the Greek state makes moves that will help the promotion of the country’s tourism product in Britain, they will not be able to sell their prebooked packages.

over the last few weeks Britain has been bombarded with negative statements and messages about Greece... as a result Britons are opting for alternative holiday destinations.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_20/03/2012_433952 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_20/03/2012_433952)

Personally every Year we look round Europe for our Summer break. The criteria. Smaller accommodation (hate big hotels), reasonable price, laid back, beautiful, friendly, good food and little places to eat and drink over the beach. Spain, only a very few. France, nope or very expensive. Italy, nope and expensive. The Greek Islands are the only place that tick all the boxes. Greece is beautiful and Her Islands diverse. We find there is nowhere in Europe to compare. So Greece is where we spend our money (not that we have much).
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike G on March 22, 2012, 12:50:09 PM
Hello Lampyland,

It sounds as if you are a "Plakiasophile" or even a "Greekophile" (as I and many other forum members are). Many Brits are not and some have different requirements to us (e.g. the popularity of all inclusive; in fact First Choice, who featured Plakias for many years and provided much needed competition to Olympic, do nothing else now).

I agree with the thrust of the article you quote. Greece has to face up to the realities of life. That said it is clear that in Greece everyone is not in it together and the gap between rich and poor is much greater than in most western European nations.

Mike

Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on March 22, 2012, 07:57:05 PM
Hello Lampyland,

It sounds as if you are a "Plakiasophile" or even a "Greekophile" (as I and many other forum members are). Many Brits are not and some have different requirements to us (e.g. the popularity of all inclusive; in fact First Choice, who featured Plakias for many years and provided much needed competition to Olympic, do nothing else now).

I agree with the thrust of the article you quote. Greece has to face up to the realities of life. That said it is clear that in Greece everyone is not in it together and the gap between rich and poor is much greater than in most western European nations.

Mike
I am a Greekophile and have converted my other half :-).
My Father was a Cretan and came from a village just under an hours drive from Plakias. I lived on the North coast for many years during the 1980's.
Sadly my Greek is terrible..
I think I may Know Rog and Jean on this site, but only in passing and spotting them on campus.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on April 05, 2012, 07:15:13 PM
The financial disaster continues and claims another victim.
The suicide of a 77-year-old pensioner in central Syntagma Square on Wednesday, apparently fueled by financial and health problems, prompted a wave of reactions from politicians and the public.

The incident occurred shortly before 9 a.m. when the square was full of commuters using the nearby metro station. Witnesses told reporters that the man stood under a tree, pulled out a gun and shouted, “I don’t want to leave debts to my children,” before taking his life.

The 77-year-old, who was identified by the media as Dimitris Christoulas and is survived by his wife and daughter, reportedly had a serious health problem and was struggling to pay for medicines.

In a note found near the scene, the man said he could not face the idea “of searching through garbage bins for food and becoming a burden to my child.” The note also blamed “the occupation government of Tsolakoglou for taking away any chance for my survival.” The reference to Georgios Tsolakoglou, the first collaborationist prime minister during Germany’s occupation of Greece in the Second World War, is an apparent dig at Germany’s role in determining the austerity measures imposed on Greeks.

The suicide prompted statements from several politicians. Prime Minister Lucas Papademos said, “In these difficult times for our country we must all -- the state and its citizens -- support those next to us who are in despair.” The leader of conservative New Democracy, Antonis Samaras, said, “Death isn’t just to die; it’s also to live in despair.” The leader of socialist PASOK, Evangelos Venizelos, said the incident was “so shocking that any political comment would be mistargeted and cheap.”

Later Wednesday, some 2,000 people staged a peaceful protest and candlelit vigil in Syntagma Square.

The incident comes amid a sharp rise in suicides in recent years, with 149 reported so far this year. On the eastern Aegean island of Chios Wednesday, a 31-year-old man shot himself in the neck in what appeared to be a thwarted suicide attempt. He was hospitalized in serious condition. In the Cypriot port of Limassol, meanwhile, a 50-year-old father of three set fire to himself in his car, reportedly due to money worries.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_3_04/04/2012_436531 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_3_04/04/2012_436531)
 
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on April 26, 2012, 09:59:33 PM
Do tourists genuinely care about the plight of the Greek people in the resorts and places they visit?
Yet more distressing news in the media about the crisis in Greece. The poorest and the middle classes are being hit the hardest of course.
I visit a number of forum sites for many of the Greek Islands we visit. Some of the forums are full of News of the Greek crisis and others give barely a mention and mostly enquire about Beer, the cheapest sunbeds and where they can watch the football, get an English Breakfast or buy a British paper.
We have very modest means but only use cash when in Greece so Local Tavernas, bars and businesses can use their discretion when it comes to Taxes.
Greece got into this crisis by avoiding their taxes say most people. The Answer is more complicated than that. Germany and France were complicit in cooking the books so that Greece could join the Euro. Massive loans were arranged that Greece could not possibly pay back. In hindsight I believe that Greece should have never joined the single currency, I do not believe it would be in the Mess it is in if it had remained with the Drachma.
Like in the UK it is the poor, the pensioners, the lower paid and now the middle classes that are doing all of the suffering whilst the rich and the Government still use the loopholes and avoid paying tax.
The only way tourists can directly assist local economies is by not using all inclusives and by paying in hard cash. I know it is wrong for a small business not to declare all income but I see no other way that they can have a livelihood and survive the off-season.

People on this forum seem to genuinely care about the people who live and work in Plakias and many have been visiting for many years. What do you think we should do with our Cash however small or large it may be?
Quote
Real incomes in Greece dropped by a massive 25.3 percent in 2011 from the year before, according to an annual report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) which uses data forwarded by the Greek Finance Ministry. It adds that Greek salary workers pay relatively low taxes but high social security contributions.
   
Source http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_25/04/2012_439333 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_25/04/2012_439333)

Quote
Greeks seek austerity trial at The Hague. It is rare for citizens to try to take their government to court, and even more so for a Western European government to be taken to the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague.

Source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17811153 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17811153)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike G on April 27, 2012, 02:41:40 PM
You are quite right that Greece should never have been allowed to join the € but even if they hadn't they would probably be in (less of) a financial mess owing to their over spending and under taxing.

As you say the best we can do is to continue to visit and spend.

I'm looking forward to reading the first reports of the 2012 season soon.

Mike
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Dave&Les on May 01, 2012, 06:45:02 AM
Just leaving for Plakias for 4 weeks...will report what's going on when we get back.

Dave&Les
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: mickydripping on May 01, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Just returned from two weeks in Plakias, and one in Ayia Galini. In ntwo weeks in Plakias the only greek waiter I met was Nikos... every other one was either a proprietor or originated from Bulgaria, Albania, Latvia, Moldova ect. And I thought there was reputedly unemployment in Greece!... wonder if the minimum wage is to blame. As an aside, Ayia Galina is quite a lot cheaper, both for rooms and eating out... but not aas wide a choice or as good a beach. Had a great time, weather was best I have ever had in spring.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on May 01, 2012, 09:06:27 PM
Just returned from two weeks in Plakias, and one in Ayia Galini. In ntwo weeks in Plakias the only greek waiter I met was Nikos... every other one was either a proprietor or originated from Bulgaria, Albania, Latvia, Moldova ect. And I thought there was reputedly unemployment in Greece!... wonder if the minimum wage is to blame. As an aside, Ayia Galina is quite a lot cheaper, both for rooms and eating out... but not aas wide a choice or as good a beach. Had a great time, weather was best I have ever had in spring.
Crazy for all the foreign workers when youth unemployment in Greece is now 51.5% and 20.7% over all. Perhaps employment is much better on Crete because of high tourist numbers.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on May 08, 2012, 09:28:23 AM
Election results and what happens next.
Quote
The ten-day search for a coalition government begins today 7th of May after the electoral upset that saw Pasok and New Democracy sink to record lows, even as left wing Syriza soared in support.
 
New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras, whose party placed first with 18.8 percent of the vote and 108 seats, is scheduled to receive today from President Karolos Papoulias an exploratory mandate to form a government.
 
The first three parties – ND, Syriza and Pasok - each get an exploratory mandate for three days, to see of they can form a coalition. If all three fail, the president holds a conference with all party leaders, for a last try to form a government, before repeat elections.

Source  http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/55390 (http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/8/55390)

Quote
Greece must stick to the reform path it agreed as part of its bailout package with international lenders, a German government spokesman said on Monday after pro-bailout ruling parties lost their majority in parliament in Athens.

Source  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-greece-germany-idUSBRE8460B620120507 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-greece-germany-idUSBRE8460B620120507)

Quote
Greece might run out of cash by end-June if it does not have a government in place to negotiate a next aid tranche with the EU and the IMF and projected state revenues fall short, three finance ministry officials told Reuters on Monday.

Source  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-greece-cash-idUSBRE8460LG20120507 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-greece-cash-idUSBRE8460LG20120507)

We are living in very interesting times.
Will Greece be able to form a new Coalition Government or will there be a fresh election called?
Will the new Government reject the austerity measures and default on EU and IMF loans?
Is this the end of Greece being in the single currency and the return of the Drachma?
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: nora on May 08, 2012, 06:43:43 PM
Yes there are so many questions and possible outcomes isn't there. Whatever happens I hope Greece do whats best for the majority of ordinary people. Let this act as a warning to  western europe ,bankers and indeed our awful coalition govt  in the uk - you can't bully the people and bleed them dry - there is a limit to how much we can take. 
Nora x
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on May 09, 2012, 04:52:52 PM
Yes there are so many questions and possible outcomes isn't there. Whatever happens I hope Greece do whats best for the majority of ordinary people. Let this act as a warning to  western europe ,bankers and indeed our awful coalition govt  in the uk - you can't bully the people and bleed them dry - there is a limit to how much we can take. 
Nora x
We see our pensions getting worth less and less with the financial crisis and recession in the UK.
Our standard of living has plummeted and bus services, Hospital are at risk or no longer exist.
Price of fuel and food climbing and to make matters worse there is no sign of Spring or Summer on the West coast of Wales.

The Greeks now look very unlikely to be able to form a Government and a fresh election will have to be endured.
When will the mess ever end. At least they have the Sunshine to make things a little bit more bearable.

Update....All in tatters as Greece fails to form a Government. New election called and the Greek people will go to the Polls probably in early June.
The Euro continues to plummet against Sterling.
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on May 15, 2012, 08:36:17 PM
So the Endgame finally begins.
A caretaker government is being put into place until early June when a new Election will take place.
Will it mean that Greece defaults and returns to the Drachma?
The upheaval will be massive whichever way it goes. The Greek people cannot afford the austerity measures but without the bailout the country will default.
Worrying times.
New Greek elections as coalition talks fail - Venizelos
Party leaders had a final round of talks on Tuesday, but did not agree on a new government
Greece is set to go to the polls again after days of coalition talks failed to produce agreement on a new government, says the leader of the Socialist Pasok party, Evangelos Venizelos.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18076757 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18076757)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on May 28, 2012, 11:25:54 AM
An article that is doing the rounds on German media.
I am taking that it is from some of the more extremist wing of German media and Government but it is a worrying read.
Quote
During the past hours, the Greek media has been circulating a shocking German article from [url=http://www.german-foreign-policy.com]www.german-foreign-policy.com[/url] ([url]http://www.german-foreign-policy.com[/url]) that argues than in Berlin, authorities are considering coup scenarios and other ways to use armed forces to impose their will on Greece.

In the run-up to new elections in Greece, the German elite is discussing various scenarios involving the use of force to ensure control over Athens, including the establishment of a protectorate or the deployment of “protection forces” in that southern European country. The German austerity dictate, pushing Greece into destitution, is provoking growing popular resistance, which, apparently, can no longer be suppressed with democratic means. Berlin has failed in its efforts to force Athens into subordination by threatening to withdraw the Euro, as much as with its demand that Greece combines its parliamentary elections with a referendum on the question of remaining in the Euro zone. Berlin categorically rejects the option of retracting the austerity dictate and replacing it with stimulus programs, as is being demanded by leading economists worldwide, even though the exclusion of Greece from the Euro zone threatens to push the currency itself, into an abyss.

Full story here http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/05/27/shocking-german-article-in-berlin-they-even-consider-military-coup-scenarios-for-greece/ (http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/05/27/shocking-german-article-in-berlin-they-even-consider-military-coup-scenarios-for-greece/)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Mike G on May 29, 2012, 01:07:28 PM
An article that is doing the rounds on German media.
I am taking that it is from some of the more extremist wing of German media and Government but it is a worrying read.
Quote
During the past hours, the Greek media has been circulating a shocking German article from [url=http://www.german-foreign-policy.com]www.german-foreign-policy.com[/url] ([url]http://www.german-foreign-policy.com[/url]) that argues than in Berlin, authorities are considering coup scenarios and other ways to use armed forces to impose their will on Greece.

In the run-up to new elections in Greece, the German elite is discussing various scenarios involving the use of force to ensure control over Athens, including the establishment of a protectorate or the deployment of “protection forces” in that southern European country. The German austerity dictate, pushing Greece into destitution, is provoking growing popular resistance, which, apparently, can no longer be suppressed with democratic means. Berlin has failed in its efforts to force Athens into subordination by threatening to withdraw the Euro, as much as with its demand that Greece combines its parliamentary elections with a referendum on the question of remaining in the Euro zone. Berlin categorically rejects the option of retracting the austerity dictate and replacing it with stimulus programs, as is being demanded by leading economists worldwide, even though the exclusion of Greece from the Euro zone threatens to push the currency itself, into an abyss.

Full story here [url]http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/05/27/shocking-german-article-in-berlin-they-even-consider-military-coup-scenarios-for-greece/[/url] ([url]http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/05/27/shocking-german-article-in-berlin-they-even-consider-military-coup-scenarios-for-greece/[/url])

I think some sort of military intervention in Greece is just about possible (remember 1967-74) but it would be a military coup by the Greek army not the Germans.

It was reported in today's Telegraph that pro-austerity (i.e stay in the €) parties are now leading in the latest opinion polls

Mike
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on June 21, 2012, 08:07:01 PM
Squeeze Greece or find funds yourselves, euro chief warns
 A top EU bailout official warned the eurozone Thursday that it must order Greece to make fresh budget cuts or raise more taxes, or eurozone members will have to cough up more cash themselves.
As a new Greek government takes office, the country's second bailout which was stuck in limbo as voters challenged European Union and International Monetary Fund austerity measures in two elections, is «totally off track, months behind schedule,» Thomas Wieser told AFP.

Wieser, head of the key Euro Working Group, said the choice facing currency partners was stark.

Either you «stick to the fiscal targets and then you need additional measures» from Greece, the Brussels-based official said, or you change deadlines, in which case «you need extra money."
Full story here...http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_21/06/2012_448279 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_21/06/2012_448279)
Title: Re: Greece's financial plight
Post by: Voloudakis on June 25, 2012, 10:14:49 AM
Little Support for Greece.
Quote
A poll of a total of just under 4,000 people in Germany, France, Spain and Italy published Sunday showed 78 percent of Germans and 65 percent of French people wanted Greece to leave the eurozone, with 51 percent in Spain and 49 percent in Italy also backing a Greek exit.

In all four countries, majorities said that loans to Greece will never be paid back, even as most said that not saving Greece would increase the euro region’s difficulties “dangerously.”

full story http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_24/06/2012_448718 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_24/06/2012_448718)

Quote
Greece's new government should stop asking for more help and instead move quickly to enact reform measures agreed to in return for previous bailouts from its European partners, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said on Sunday.

"The most important task facing new prime minister (Antonis) Samaras is to enact the program agreed upon quickly and without further delay instead of asking how much more others can do for Greece,» said Schaeuble, a close ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel and Europe's most powerful finance minister.

full story http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_24/06/2012_448706 (http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_24/06/2012_448706)

What a pity and Germany and France have very short memories as they were the first Countries to breach EU rules but they got away with it.

With the new Greek government still full of Corrupt politicians especially within New Democracy, there still seems to be a black future.
I hope I am wrong.